The Bethel Scandal and What It Means for the Church

When church leaders fail, the fallout can leave believers confused, hurt, and unsure how to respond. In this episode, we discuss the recent controversy surrounding Bethel Church and the allegations involving Shawn Bolz. We want to be clear: we are not experts, investigators, or pastors. But we do believe Scripture is clear about how the Church is called to respond when sin, deception, and leadership failure come into the light.

Rather than reacting with outrage or speculation, we slow the conversation down and examine what the Bible says about accountability, repentance, transparency, and discernment, for both leaders and congregants.

Scriptures referenced:

1 Timothy 5:19–21

1 Corinthians 5:1–5

Ezekiel 33:1–16

1 Peter 4:17

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hey, hey, Seriously South Podcast and welcome back. Um, I'm actually gonna kick this over to Julia so she can kind of open us up about what we're talking about today because it's gonna get interesting.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Yeah, basically she's letting me just go ahead and push myself under this bus. So um with recent events surrounding what has happened with um the announcement of the failure in leadership with Bethel, we thought that this would be a good opportunity to talk about how to deal with uh with it when your leaders fail you.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

Um and to kind of just dig through what even the Bible calls us to do, you know, because a lot of people got a lot of opinions, right? A lot of opinions on what Bethel should have done differently, a lot of opinions on um what how the congregation should respond and how we should deal with false prophets and all of these things. And and I think a lot of the things that people are bringing up are valid points, right? Um, but I but I also feel like sometimes in the church um we can be hyper graceful and rush to do that without actually dealing with things. And so this conversation, while it is based upon this situation with Bethel, it's not totally about Bethel. It's about the church and it's about leadership and it's about the heart. So we want to just talk about it because it's timely.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Yeah, um I think that we were talking through it and we're gonna do it in a couple of parts, but you know, um to kick it off, we we kind of want to go through the congregation standpoint from being a congregant, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Yeah, so so the thing about it is is that the apology statement was made, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

It was.

SPEAKER_04 1:59

And I think that there is this pressure that because an apology was made, everybody's life is just supposed to move on. We don't need to take time to discuss it, you know, we don't need to take time to hold leaders accountable because they apologized.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

I think that people really confuse grace with and forgiveness with um the word accountability. Like we your actions have consequences. And um, the Bible doesn't say that you're without consequence when you do things, right? There is grace, there is forgiveness, and we we offer that. But the Bible's pretty strict about what you do with leaders who are, you know, false prophets. It's very, very specific on what you're supposed to do in holding another elder or leader accountable when these kind of things happen. So I I think the problem sometimes is we offer we have this grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace uh message that we are always and everyone should get grace. And I'm not saying they don't deserve grace. We do, we we we do offer to give grace, but that doesn't mean there's no consequences for actions.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

And that doesn't mean that there are there's gonna be there's not one one size fits all for this because there will be people who were affected differently within that same church or outside of the church, and there will be people who were gravely impacted. It's it's gonna be different in in how each person handles it. I don't think there's a there is a wrong way, but I I don't think there's one right way, you know. Like um, I know some uh congregants are saying like that the pastor needs to step down. I don't see that happening. There's like thousands of people in this church, you know what I mean? Um and some some people like uh think that you know the grace should be offered and we should move on. Um, and I know you have some things that we're gonna talk through about biblically what it looks like, but I I did want to say that, you know, we're not saying that we shouldn't offer grace because I I do believe we should. And um we're gonna talk a little bit about the apology and how it came about and how that kind of looks as well. But um that doesn't mean there's no consequence, and that doesn't mean that you don't hold the leader accountable for what they did. Um, they're in charge of leading this flock, right? And I don't know about you, but if the shepherd's not leading the sheep well, they might lose a couple sheep.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Yeah. And and losing sheep is kind of the point that I want to make. So yeah, I've I've seen really two different kinds of responses to this. I've seen, you know, and they're usually polar opposites of each other. One is just like they apologize, let's move on, like it's fine. And then the other one is remove them from their position, don't ever let them speak again.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Bar the doors.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

Yeah, all the things. And you brought up a good point when you said there's not a one size fits all. And this is why, yes, Bethel is the catalyst for the conversation. But the conversation really has to be a bigger conversation than just Bethel, because leaders are going to fail you because they're people, right? Right. But when they fail you, how they fail you, whether it's habitual or not, all of those things have to be taken into consideration whenever we as a congregant uh decide how we're going to respond. And that's why I wanted to start from there, because you and I are congregants, right? We're not pastors. We're we're in a leadership position per se, being on a worship team, but we're we sit in service, right? We're we're not the teachers. And so I think about it from that standpoint of how would I respond if I was in that situation? And and by no means do I feel like I have the answer of how we should do it. Again, I don't think that there's necessarily a right answer, but I do think that the first thing that we should do is give attention to the issue at hand. I feel like a lot of people are very quick to make a decision whether it is to just go ahead and sweep it under the rug or if it is to just remove everybody from every position ever without taking a second to think about it. Like sit with it, especially if it's your leader. You got to process through what happened. Are you the victim? Are you a direct victim? Are you just a passerby? Are you related to the leader who had the failing? Like, there's a lot of things we have to think about and sift through before we make that decision. And ultimately, what is this decision we're making? We're making a decision on whether we should stay at this church or whether we should leave.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

I think that one of the biggest issues here, and this is from a congregant standpoint, is like this isn't, this is like, you know, leaders fell every day, and you know, pastors fail every day, but this is such a grave or bigger thing when it's you misled us spiritually. Right. Like that's like your your one job is you're supposed to per, you know, protect your your congregation. You're the leader here. Um, and you like allowed a woof into the you know what I'm saying? Like it's it's not the same as as for me, it's not the same as like a leader letting you down. Right. They let you down, like, oh, the pastor didn't come through with this, or you know, he said something on from the pulpit that he shouldn't have said, or you know, he slipped up maybe in his personal life and shouldn't have done that, shouldn't do that. But you know, it's something where the position he's in is there's a level of authority that I'm giving him in my life. There's a level of authority. Um you know, you could say it's like right underneath my husband, right? He's right there, that level of authority. And he broke that by leading me spiritually towards something that is not of God.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

And that's the one job.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

It and again, depending upon what we're talking about, yeah, they they might have misled you spiritually, but in this particular instance, they put people in a position to be abused physically. They put people in a position to be, and when I say they put them there, what I mean is their lack of speaking allowed people to make decisions that they might not have made had they had the information that they needed to have about this particular person. So yeah, they they misled them spiritually, but they also misled them emotionally, they misled them mentally, they misled them physically in certain situations if they put them in a position to be abused. Um, because some of the allegations against this person are sexual allegations. So it's a big, big failing. It's a huge failing. Um, so from a congregant standpoint, I think you have to ask these these questions to determine your response. How was it released? How did it come out? Is this something that came out because someone sinned and recognized that they sinned and repented and turned? Or was this something that was done in the dark over many, many years? Other elders knew about it, and even if they distanced themselves, they didn't tell their flock, this is happening, don't listen to this person. Because depending upon what the answer is, your response might be different. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God, all of us. I don't care what position you're in, and there's grace for that. But where I have a hard time is when this is something that is habitual that you kept from me, and I'm trusting you to lead me, like you said, and you kept something from me that could have damaged me spiritually, and it did. Um, for the in this particular situation, there was at least one person who's walked away from the Lord because of this, because of these false prophecies and all of those things. So it could damage people spiritually, it could damage them emotionally. Some people have had to go to therapy to deal with all of the things that they've dealt with, um, particularly in regard to the sexual allegations. But what are we talking about? Because if this is just a one-time thing, somebody slipped up, there's grace for that. Why are we removing this person from their position, depending upon what it is? Why, you know, they of their own accord came and made their confession, made it known, took a seat. You know, as a as a worship leader, um, you know, I've there's been times where I just know in my heart I'm not right and I've sat myself down, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

That's a very different thing than someone who is using their position uh to gain access to people and things and resources because they can. And it wouldn't have come out unless somebody exposed it. So I think that's the first thing that you have to ask yourself is how did this come out and why did it come out?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

I think that um the way this came out makes it so much worse. To your to your point, like that it came out that you're apologizing because someone told on you. Um and what what really really makes it a big hit is it it's a you knew you distance yourself, but then you continue down this path to gain financial footing, financial gain from it, from this person. Um it's it's a lot. It's actually probably one of the worst things I've seen in the church. And it's and it's really hard as a as a believer because my goal is to bring people to the Lord. Um and I do understand why sometimes church leaders don't speak up and don't bring everything to the congregation's eyes, um, even if they're supposed to, um, because sometimes they're scared of the image it's going to give the church. Yeah. But the reason it's like that is we stop following what scripture is telling us to do in these instances. It's very simple what is it, First Timothy five says for us to do in those instances is very clear. And we were talking with with Mike last night about this, and I was like, it's very clear what this is telling us to do. But we don't do that.

SPEAKER_04 12:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Why not?

SPEAKER_04 12:28

Right, right. So since you brought it up, let's read it. It's first Timothy five, nineteen through twenty-one. Do not entertain an accusation against an elder except on the testimony of two or three witnesses. But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone so that the others will stand in fear of sin. I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to maintain these principles without bias and to do nothing out of partiality. That's a very different kind of word than how some people are approaching this.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yeah, they're approaching it. Let's offer grace. Oh, don't don't say anything, leave it alone. That's not what that says. That says you're supposed to make an example out of them. Right. So that no one else does this.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

Right. And here's here's the other thing. You know, there's there was um uh well it's in the Bible, but there's another preacher recently who came under fire for quoting something that is scriptural, um, which basically is in um, I think it's in it's it's in Corinthians somewhere, first or second Corinthians, I believe. But basically it says, um, Paul is talking about someone who has done something um that everyone should be like, can't believe that as a believer you did this, right? Right. And um Paul is like, I would rather that you pray them into the hands of Satan so that they turn from their sins. That's a harsh word. But part of holding people accountable, yes, is to protect your flock, but it's also for them. When they see that the church is unified and standing for righteousness and that they're concerned and they're not going to let um a failing come in and be a disease through the rest of the church, the hope is that you if you're that person who's done that, the hope is that you see that and like, man, I messed this up big, let me run to God. Like, it's it's not we're not only doing it to rebuke and push you out. Now, there's instruction for that too. If if someone is is hard set on not doing it the right way, there's scripture for that too, and how we address that. So I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is the hope and and holding people accountable is that they would turn and repent.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

And I think that that is the biggest thing for me with this situation in particular, is that it's hard to believe an apology of repentance when that apology of repentance came after You were found out. You were found out.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah, and that's I think, um, and I know we were talking about that. Like, how do you how do you navigate that when it's I don't know if the apology is sincere, right? I don't know if they're they're sincerely apologizing or they're just scared that they got caught and the concern is if this is just one of the skeletons in the closet. Are there more? Are there more? And I think from a congregant standpoint, like you said, you gotta you gotta figure out where you are. Um in I'm not at Bethel, never been there. Um, I don't even think I've ever watched a service, if I'm being honest. I don't know much about the pastor. I can't even think what his name is.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

It's Bill Johnson.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

There we go. Um, I don't know much about him if I'm if I'm just being honest, but I have heard that he's one of the most influential leaders of this time in the church.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

In the charismatic church, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

He's he's huge. So um how how do you like go back from this? How do you how do you how do you be that that leader that you were prior when you've kind of put a stain on everything?

SPEAKER_04 16:21

Well, the hope would be that they too would learn from the hope would be that their apology is sincere and that they would really repent. And and what is repentance? Because we've been throwing that word around. Repentance is when you acknowledge that you've done something wrong, you apologize for it, and then you turn. I think a lot of times we talk about repentance, and people think that it's just like, I'm so sorry, God, that I did that. Please have mercy on me, please forgive me. That's part of it. But true repentance is a turning away from something. And even if in your turning away you stumble again, the heart to turn away from the thing that um that you did that was in opposition to God is what is required. So I think we'll find out whether what they said is legitimate or not based upon what they do.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I think that um in this like instance, like everyone's thrown around grace and love. Grace and love, grace and love. Love it. Um, but if you love someone, you will hold them accountable and correct them. And I don't know, like I said, I don't know the structure of the church. You know, I'm sure there's elders, I'm sure, you know, it's a church, right? It's not my church either. You're right. So um I honestly don't think the right answer is to get up and leave if you are a part of that body and that is your church, and that is your church family, and you're invested, like I'm invested in my church, that's my church family. And if they did, if something happened, I wouldn't get up and leave, but I would push accountability. I would. Um, because I'm not just here on a Sunday to listen to the word. I'm invested. This is my family, right? These are my church family. And um, if they want to get rid of me, they're probably gonna have to, you know, put a fence up, restraining order. I don't know. Because not that restraining, like what I'm saying is I'm fully invested.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Right. I get you.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

You know, and even in in our in our church, you know, I've gone through we've gone through things where, you know, we had disagreements or maybe something wasn't the way we thought it should be, and you know, you didn't like it necessarily. Um, but I didn't get up and say, uh, this ain't this isn't working the way it should. I'm I'm gonna chuck a deuce and I'm gonna go. Right now, I know this is substantially different, substantially worse, right? But I think the people that are the core of that body, they have to be the ones that are pushing for change and correction, not hey, this happened, so I'm just gonna go bounce to a new church. Right. I'll go be an elder over here because I ain't working on at this one anymore.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

Right. And I think we do, you know, toe the line sometimes of being church hoppers.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Like the moment as soon as something bad happens, we're gone.

SPEAKER_04 19:10

Right. And and again, I understand that this situation is an intense situation. And by no means am I taking lightly the things that these victims have gone through, you know, people's lives have been destroyed, marriages have been destroyed, you know, all kinds of things. So I'm not taking that lightly. I'm speaking more generally, and what I'm saying is that sometimes we have a tendency to be church hoppers anytime something doesn't go the way that we want to. And we we do have to come to terms with the fact that the church is full of people. I don't care what position they're in, they're a person who is capable of failing you. That's why I feel like you have to ask these questions because your your church's situation might be very different than the situation that Bethel is going through right now, which doesn't warrant leaving. You know, if this is something that your pastor has done and and they failed, and even if they need to take a moment to step back and let an associate pastor or a deacon or someone fill that role for the time being, that doesn't mean you need to leave because we're all figuring this out, we're all getting better day by day. But if you can ask those questions of why did this come out, how did it come out, and how are they responding? If the answer is it came out because they realized that they had done something wrong and they were owning it, and then their response was, I'm gonna do the work that I need to do to not do this again, why leave? Because you're under someone who is humble, you're under someone who recognizes that they need God, and you're under someone who's open to accountability. That's a good person to be open under, even though they may have failed in this particular thing, depending upon what it is. But if you're under leadership where it came out because someone else outed them, then they tried to quiet victims, then they pushed it under the rug for six, seven, eight, nine, ten years, and then they apologize, and six months down the road we see no change, it might be time for you to find a new church.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, and that's the the one thing that's the most um scary is uh that the platform is so large that we just continue on like nothing happened.

SPEAKER_04 21:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Like that the platform is so large and there's so many people, so many sheep, that they just continue on the same process, no repentance, no correction. Continue on like it it never happened. And there's a high likelihood that's what's gonna happen here.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

Yeah, I mean it's it's entirely possible because we're we're already sitting. People's initial response be forgive them, which we should be forgiving.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

But forgiving and then acting like it didn't happen are not the same thing. Those are two completely different things. So I think you're absolutely right. You know, and and the other thing is that, like, yes, Bethel is in California, but Bethel has an online presence that reaches the world, right? So it's a it's a big responsibility that the leaders have. And that's the second element that I want to talk about is the responsibility of the leaders to understand to hold their other leaders accountable, right? Because this that happened with this prophet, false prophet, was only able to happen because other leaders failed to do their job. When you're a leader in the church, the the Lord calls you a watchman. And that brings me back to Ezekiel, where the Lord was telling Ezekiel, now, slightly different situation because the Lord was telling Ezekiel to tell Israel about what Israel was doing wrong, right? But either way, the premise is the same. Ezekiel was called the watchman, and God said to him, If you warn these people, and I'm paraphrasing, but if you warn these people about what I'm telling you about how if they continue down this way, there's going to be judgment for them, if you warn them, whatever they do is not going to be on you. But if you don't warn them, I'm going to hold you responsible for Israel, because you did not warn them as I've set you as a watchman. When you're in a leadership position in a church, you are a watchman over your flock.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:49

If you don't lead them well, if you don't protect them, God is going to hold you accountable for that. So, yes, congregants have a response on whether they should stay or leave or all these things, but leaders also have a response. What are you going to do? And that's why I'm interested to see. Um, you know, I I hope the best out of this situation with um with Bethel. I hope that the apology was sincere. I didn't know anything about it until um I didn't either until I saw it on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

And I was like, could you give me some context? Right. So so just put something.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

So when I say that this is not an attack on Bethel or anything like that, it's just an opportunity to talk about something that I feel like we need to be talking about in the church in general is accountability. Because Bethel's not the first church to fail in this area, and they won't be the last.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And you know, and Bethel is a like I said, it's a massive church. Um, and I know this is really bad, like what has happened, but I would argue that, you know, the Lord's still moving in that church and he has been moving in that church for a while. And he's been moving through that pastor, and um this is going to be a God moment at the end of this, and we'll see how it plays out, like we were talking about in the last one. You just never know what's gonna happen. Um, I I think this will be a moment uh to refine some things there. Um, but I don't I do think that there's been tons of miracles that have come out of that church. So just because there was one false prophet and one false teacher doesn't doesn't make everything false, make everything, you know, like that. So don't think like, oh, the whole the whole situation is a scam, all of it's this, all of it's that. I personally have led many of Bethel songs in my life. So have I. Many of them. And I can tell you, there's some there's some powerful songs, powerful songs that come out of that church that I'm blessed to have led them. I'm blessed to have heard them. Um so even in the midst of all this stuff happening behind the scenes, God's still in it, God's still working.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

And God, God will, if you trust in him and you trust him, he'll he'll correct it.

SPEAKER_04 26:09

He will. And and the thing is, you know, that's why I said I'm curious to see how this plays out because they could very well have meant that apology.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

And I hope they did.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

I hope they did, and they could do things differently, they could respond differently. That's what we hope for, right? That's what we pray for. That's why when these things come out as they should, um, it is an opportunity for the church to grow. It's an opportunity for them specifically to grow, and it's an opportunity for all of us who get to see it to learn from that situation, which is why I wanted to have the conversation.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

It feels like, and this is just my and you may not agree, it my perspective is that often um there are some really big, like, I don't want to say scandals, but that's the best word I can say.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

I mean that's what it is.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

There are so many scandals that come to mind when I think of churches. Um, and and quite a few churches have had quite a few different scandals, um um, sexual assault, things with with youth, all these things. And it always is the same process. It's like they hide it, they don't address it, and then somehow it comes to light. And it's like we're just on a hamster wheel doing the same thing over and over again. It's not just Bethel. There's tons of churches out there that have had horrible things happen within the church, within leaders of the church, with um people that were entrusted, people that they were put in positions. And instead of addressing it head on with the congregation and letting them know, hey, this happened and we have done X, Y, and Z to fix it. It is often let's hush it, let's hide it, let's try to move on.

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Um, and and I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's to save face, I don't know if it's because they're scared that it'll lead people away from God. I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

I think it's all of those things.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, but in and I would almost argue that being transparent and being vulnerable and honest might actually give the church a better look than what we are given to the outside world that we're better, too good, too great, too good for everyone. And then these things happen and they're like, Oh, look at them. Do you see them? Did you see the scandal? Did you see what happened? It it really just would make much more sense to follow what the scripture says to do in those instances and and bring it to light immediately.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

Because there was a standard. Yeah. Like when when that when that was written in the scripture, there was a standard of how this was supposed to go. And and to your point, I think what the world sees when they see the church sometimes is that we have a standard that we don't live by. We have a belief that we don't walk in. Like we have a doctrine that we don't follow. And um, and that was gonna be this is why I want to talk about this. Not because I want to talk about Bethel particular in particular or anything, but because to your point, I feel like the church will do better when the church grasps the idea that if we do it God's way, and and if we deal with our things even when we mess it up, that we will grow. So, like you were talking about it, we'll have a better look in the public eye. Yes, we will, because the stigma around Christians being hypocrites will cease to exist if we start dealing with our own stuff. The judgment is gonna start in the house of the Lord. Maybe we should think about that and judge ourselves. If we start holding each other accountable, we can change how we can change what is out there for people to view about the church. And you know what the outcome of that might be? The church might grow.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I I agree. And um, gosh, it just that we could talk about this all night, honestly. Um, it it might not only grow, but we might actually change lives in the fact that we have people that left the church because someone in the church did something to them, and we swept it under the rug and just said, you know, I remember I, you know, when I used to work at uh one of the places I was talking to, one of the girls there, she said she used to go to church and her mom and her when she was a kid, I guess her mom got divorced and the church like shunned her. And and so she stopped believing in God because we weren't being the church. It's we hold our we hold our congregation to a standard, right? Can't volunteer unless you do X, Y, and Z. If you're going for for if you're going through something like a divorce, well, you need to step down for a little while. You don't need to be up here, but then you have the people that are the leaders of everything doing something over here with their hand. It just it's not a good look, it's not a good feeling. And I don't, I don't have all the answers to fix it, except that we need to follow what the word tells us to do in all these instances. And if we started doing that, oh my gosh, what would that mean? But it also means from a congregation standpoint, if church leaders were to start standing up and were to start calling it out immediately and and following it like scripture, that we don't just run away.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Because now the church is unclean and is not perfect as I thought it was. And the Well, it ain't perfect now. What is it? The glass mirror has been shattered or something like, you know, we see it a certain way. But that happens all the time. Where something didn't happen to the church, we thought it was supposed to happen, and you know what we do? I gotta go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_04 31:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

These people are unholy.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

Yeah, I just, you know, there's so many disservices we do to ourselves when we don't do it God's way. And, you know, we're talking about the impact that has on the church, big capital C church. Um, but also people who need healing don't get it when we don't deal with the things that we need to deal with. And I mean both the victim and the victimizer. The person who did the thing that caused the damage needs God just as much as the person who was the victim for different reason, but they need God just as much. But when we don't deal with stuff, neither the victim nor the victimizer gets the healing that they're supposed to get in the church. So we have to deal with these things because we're not representing God in a good light. We're not meeting people where they need us, and the world is looking at us like, why in the world would we come over there with y'all? We can do bad by ourselves. Yeah, we don't need help.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Y'all are nuts. Y'all say one thing and do another, and then stick your nose up at us like well, you're better than us.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Crazy.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

So, you know, again, it's a conversation that needs to be had. It's not just Bethel, it's the church as a whole. That we need to do better about following this the scripture. We need to do better about um actually walking in the things we say we believe, because this is the book that we say grounds our faith. Right. But we don't want to follow it. We, and by we, I mean congregants and leadership need to do better about this whole narrative and this whole um method of transparency. Right. Ask yourself as a congregant, what is God saying? Discernment is really what I'm trying to get at. You need discernment if you need if you're trying to decide whether you should stay or go as a congregant. You need discernment as a leader, whether you're deciding should we go public with this failing or not. Is it is it at that point yet with where we need to let our people know, or have we not gotten there yet? Is this a is this a a private sin that can be dealt with privately and doesn't impact anyone? And or is it a public sin that has happened on a public platform and we need to engage the public? I don't think that we have discernment the way that we should. And it's easier to just either A, run in emotion and go to a different church, or B sweep everything under the rug because either way it's not dealing with it.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Right, right. And I think that um a lot of fear comes into this. I did want to say that what the scripture doesn't say is to wait to figure out the best way to spin this, to get up on that stage and to think, hey, I know this happened on on Monday, but we're gonna wait until this day at this time, and we're gonna say it this way so that we can spin it in a in in a way that is a little bit more palatable for people to understand or to people to take. Right. Like it just sounds better when I say these words instead of saying these words over here. It doesn't say to do that. I um we try to like baby feed it almost, but in it's not baby feeding in the sense the congregation can't handle it. It's baby feeding, and we're hoping it takes the least amount of blows to to the person. To my reputation, yes, to my reputation. So let me spin this as sweet. And I and I didn't watch the apology from Bethel. I'm gonna be honest. I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

I read it. I didn't watch it. I read it.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Um, I I know they said that they did it during a service, and I I didn't watch it, so I don't know what it sounded like. Um, and I probably should have, because I'd love to see, did we try to spin this narrative the best we could to make it to where um, hey, I know we did wrong, but we were deceived as well, or do we take ownership and say, you know what? We messed up.

SPEAKER_04 35:44

And and I will say, having read it, they it does seem that they try to take ownership. My thing that I'm waiting to see, though, it's one thing to say you've taken ownership, right? It's another thing to actually do it. And only time will tell whether they actually do it. I can apologize to you all day long. But if in two weeks I come back and do the same thing to you that I did two weeks ago that I was apologizing for in the first place, I've not really repented. Right. So their their apology seems like they're taking ownership of how they didn't warn their people like they should have, or how they extended more grace than they should have. They said all of those things. So I want to make sure I'm painting a clear picture. Um, but the truth of it will come out in time.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Well, then I get scared that if they say they extended more grace than they should have, they are not following the scripture themselves because as the leader, they were supposed to hold that other person accountable. Where does it say we're supposed to offer grace when people are prop false prophets and leading the whole congregation? Oh, I get it.

SPEAKER_04 36:52

Listen, and that is a that is a completely different.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

We extended more grace. Where does it say we need to extend grace? That is no grace necessarily.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

There is a that is an entire additional episode on how we have taken Christianity and watered it down and made it very fuzzy and soft and cute.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

And you know I'm not fuzzy, soft, or cute. So I just don't get that. Yeah, but now that I'm sorry. Um yeah. But no, I that sounds like an excuse.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

I agree with you. What I'm trying not to do though is put my opinion too much in it. Time will tell. Time always tells, right? I don't have to try to assume what your response is going to be right now because time will tell me.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

I think half the time because I analyze so many words for a living, like when I hear something, I immediately do the analyzation. As soon as you said that, I'm like, no, I feel some kind of way.

SPEAKER_04 37:52

And that's okay. It's okay that you feel some kind of way because that means that at least you're processing what happened. I think sometimes sometimes people are not even giving themselves the opportunity to do that.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Oh, let's just pick up and move on. Let's just keep going.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

Or let's just pick up and leave. You know, whatever it is, you've not really taken the time to like analyze the situation, like you said.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

So again, I think time was what's being said, or are you um are you just hearing what you want to hear?

SPEAKER_04 38:19

Exactly. And everyone has a bias, whether you like Bethel or you don't, you've got a bias.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

So I like all their songs, most of them.

SPEAKER_04 38:28

So, you know, it it is what it is. But I think I do think that, you know, as a whole, we need to do better. And you know, I think also we need to understand that it's not when the church f falls, fails, that we lose credibility, but when it's when we hide the truth.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah, but it's it's kind of scary that it took um not months, not weeks, not days, but years.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

And that's what I'm saying. It's when we hide the truth that we lose credibility, not when we fail, because we're all gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

That's normal.

SPEAKER_04 39:05

That's normal. But when you're hiding the truth, that's when all this chaos ensues. And so we would all do well to learn from this, and to your point, we would all do well to um follow what scripture says.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Well, I will say this from me um to that whole congregation and just the body of Christ and even Bill Johnson.

SPEAKER_04 39:30

The senior pastor. Is that the name?

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Okay. Um I'll be praying for them. Of course, you know, because uh it's never it doesn't ever feel good when you see um your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ uh going through something like this, and you know, it hurts the the entire bot body. So, you know, we'll be praying and praying that you know that we're truly repented and that um God will use this to, you know, bring people closer to him, not stray away from him.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

And we'll be praying for the the victims.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah, for the victims that were involved, you know, killing and um that they would, you know, find forgiveness as well.

SPEAKER_04 40:11

And yeah. It's uh I guess we'll stay tuned and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah, we'll see what happens, but it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

It is. It is well that was a fun one.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

It's hard when it's hard when they're ones that like really hit har hit you here because you're just like, man, you know, um we get up on the stage and you know, we're up there trying to lead people the congregation into worship, and um there's so much being in that position there, like there's so much responsibility standing up there and and leading them. And I just could never imagine um leading them the wrong way.

SPEAKER_04 40:56

And see, this is exactly my point of why we have to have this conversation because we would um be fooling ourselves to think that this doesn't also apply to us. Right. You know, I know we started this conversation off um well, I started it off from the perspective of us being congregants, but in our own capacities, we are leaders.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Oh, absolutely. We're on a platform and we're seen by like people see us. And you know, I've been out in public and someone come up to me and hey, you know, and like talk to me. People see us, we're on a platform. We're given this privil complete privilege to lead lead people into worship.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

And to it's such a vulnerable place for people to be. And um, the idea that I could lead them wrong. Right. And that just like exactly.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

That's just so we have to hold ourselves to that same standard of you know, making sure that, you know, and and I'm gonna tell you right now, if I start acting crazy, you better call me out on it.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

You best believe. I'd be like, listen, y'all, you and Mikey can't hang out no more with these conspiracy theories. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

Oh Lord, that's also another episode. The conspiracy theories. But yeah, no, like accountability in the church has to be foundational. Like it's it's gotta be foundational, and we've got to um we're all a part of the church too.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Like that's like we all need to hold every single part. I know I think Mikey said on a couple podcasts ago, he was like, the pinky is as important as the arm, as the foot, as what and when I thought about it, I was like, well, you could live without a pinky. You can't live without a head, but no, that was the wrong thought process, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:37

I was like, wait a second.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Um, but you know, we as Christians, I'm gonna keep it as Christians, we just gotta hold each other um to abide by the word, follow the word.

SPEAKER_04 42:51

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And sometimes that's not fluffy.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

It's not fluffy a lot of the time. We over fluff things. We do. I read the I read the word and I'm like, that doesn't sound nothing like what I hear sometimes from other Christians. That is not what I expected to read. It's not fluffy a lot of the time. We need to stand up and we need to actually have a little bit of backbone and stop falling on grace and love and think that's that's all God called us to do was just love one another. And we are supposed to love one another, but sometimes love is not very fluffy.

SPEAKER_04 43:27

Yeah, and and love without truth is no love at all.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Yeah, it's deception. For me to just love and just give you everything you want because I love you is just crazy. Just nonsense. Wouldn't do that to my kid. I'm not gonna do that to my fellow believers, I'm not gonna do that to my husband. Trust me, if I love you, I'm gonna let you know.

SPEAKER_04 43:45

Good. So if I start acting crazy, you're gonna let me know.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

If you look ridiculous in public, that's like one time I had I had pepper in my mouth, in my teeth. No one told me. They must not have loved me. I said, What in the world? I went to the bathroom, I did an interview for someone. Like I interviewed someone with pepper in my teeth, no one told me. Listen, they just didn't love me. If you love me, you better, you better open your mouth and say something. All right, I digress. I don't have anything else.

SPEAKER_04 44:10

All right, well, y'all let us know what do y'all think about this um Bethel situation. And and even more than Bethel, like, where do you think that the church needs to improve as a whole so that we really start to look the way that Christ has called us to look.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

And some of the church does, though. Like there are some churches. Don't think that we're saying all churches do. I think that we all have things to work on, but I don't know. I'm really happy I'm at my church right now.

SPEAKER_04 44:36

Yeah, yeah. Glad to be where I'm at. Well, that's all I got.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

All right. Bye guys.