Are Christians Allowed to Question Their Pastor?

Are church members allowed to question leadership?

It might seem like an obvious answer but in some environments, voicing concerns can feel discouraged, uncomfortable, or even wrong. Whether it’s due to fear, a culture of silence, or the unintentional idolization of leadership, many believers struggle to know where the line is.

In this episode, we unpack this topic, discussing leadership, accountability, and the role of congregants within the Church.

Faithful members who attend, serve, and invest in their church should be able to voice concerns. Scripture doesn’t call for blind loyalty; it calls for healthy accountability, humility, and truth spoken in love.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

There should be no link of measurements. There should be no mind from measurement. And if someone on the team feels just to do something that's out of a line, then they should be able to do that. We are here to talk about church burnout. I remember this time. I just kicked it over to you because it's more dynamic.

SPEAKER_06 0:28

Is that a science?

SPEAKER_02 0:30

I try to be scientific in everything I do.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 0:34

So let's let's uh clarify a little bit. We're talking about mismanagement of church volunteers.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yes. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 0:45

Clock it. Nobody's gonna watch this. Um yeah. So you actually had this idea. Yes. So I'm gonna let you kind of tell us what your your thought process was with that.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Uh I guess my thought process is this like, what does it mean when we use someone as long as they stay within the realms of our comfortability? Like we misuse overuse. And the second that person speaks up or steps out about something they don't agree with, well, now they we don't use them no more. Now their heart is wrong. The posture of their heart is now changed. It was fine on Sunday, Tuesday, they talked to me crazy. Now their heart's out of alignment. Not using them no more.

SPEAKER_06 1:32

See, I didn't bench. I um first of all, I didn't hear benched the way that you said it. I'm like, this has turned into one of those kinds of podcasts. Okay. Um, no, but I can't personally speak to the misuse. Um, and I really can't personally speak to the overuse completely, but what I see more often than anything is overuse. It's like you got people who are on every Sunday, and God forbid that you have multiple services every Sunday, all of the services, then on Wednesday, then on Friday, then we got church outreaches. We're expecting them to be there, and people get tired, and then when you ask them to do something after they've been doing all this stuff faithfully for years, and they say, I'm gonna go do something with my family now. Oh, brother, you might want to check your heart. You sure you're all right with God?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

The fact What's crazy about that is family comes before ministry. So that's wild, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 2:42

I just I see that a lot, you know, and and part of the reason, I don't necessarily think that that leadership necessarily, every church is different, but I don't think that leadership has a heart to overwork their people. I think it's somewhat birthed out of lack of resources, because there are plenty of people who are just okay with going to church, getting a word, leaving, not contributing at all. And having someone who's faithful, who serves consistently is harder to come by. So I do understand that. But just because that is a reality doesn't mean that we need to burn out the good people that we have.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Now, but there are people who want to serve every Sunday, and they're okay serving every Sunday, every Wednesday, outreach, you name it, put them on there. And the difference I think I'm differentiating, whatever. Um, that I like I'm I'm thinking about is that those people that are doing that, I don't think it's necessarily a burnout thing. I think it's a lack of appreciation thing where where you have people who are maybe feeling like or seeing, I don't want to be the voice of the people right now. Okay, this isn't me, but whatever. Uh, you know, it's it's that lack of appreciation. Now, I do think that serving and serving God should be done with a certain heart posture. Sure. Absolutely. But I do think that we also should appreciate those people. And if they do have a concern or they do have something maybe that they feel is out of alignment, their voice should be just as important as the people who are on staff and as the people who are in charge. These volunteers that have poured their lives, put their families on pause, done things to really add to the ministry. When there's a concern that comes about, often it's there's a concern. Well, now they're a complainer, now their heart's not in the right spot. Their voice should be just as loud as yours is. You should be listening to them.

SPEAKER_06 4:51

So I think you and I are talking about two different things. I think I'm talking about burnout from overuse, and I think you're talking about being cast aside because you had a concern. So let's unpack that one that you're talking about about being cast aside because you finally spoke about up about something that you saw. Um yeah, we should not just treat people like slaves.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

If we are a slaves is crazy, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 5:18

Is it not accurate? We sometimes we do have a tendency to want people to have a voice to a point.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Right.

SPEAKER_06 5:27

And we're gonna work you because we need you.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 5:31

But God forbid that you have a concern or you use any of that discernment that we're all supposed to have and say anything about the church. Now, I again there's never been anything that I've voiced that I felt like was like, just shut up, Julia. You don't have a voice here. I also can't say that I've had a lot of instances like that, though, that I've done something like that. So who knows? Maybe I was a part of something, and that would have been the way that they responded had I said something. Um, but I think it's crazy that you can be trusted to serve, trusted to lead in whatever ministry that you're in, and then not valued enough to be considered when there's a concern.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

I think that when I think about this, I'm thinking something I heard today or this week actually is uh we were talking about safety just in driving in in general. And something that one of the managers at my work, when it comes to safety, shared is there is no management structure or rank when it comes to safety. If you see someone being unsafe, it is your job to call it out, no matter what position you're in. I think it applies the same way. There should be no rank or measurement when it comes to holding up God's word. There should be no rank or measurement. And if someone on the team hears or sees something that's out of alignment, they should be able to speak up.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

With no questions or or or questioning of their heart. What I see, what I see with with the volunteers, like what you would see on a Sunday should be what you're measuring for their heart, not when they bring the concern. The concern could be a measurement of the heart. Hey, they're they care enough to come to me.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

But it shouldn't be, well, now your heart is out of alignment because you are holding up the standards in God's word. There should be no ranking structure.

SPEAKER_06 7:16

Well, see, that's crazy to me. Like I didn't realize that that's what we were talking about because that is absolutely bananas. Because you mean to tell me that someone is coming with a biblical truth, bringing it to the attention of leadership, and leadership is saying, sit down, peon. You don't have no voice here. That's crazy. And I think that means that leadership has a heart issue. Because yes, there is a structure in the church. Yes, there are elders and senior pastors and yada yada. Yes. But God is no respecter of persons. The Bible also says that there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female. And what that means is that we're all equal. We're all on an even playing field.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

Right.

SPEAKER_06 8:08

I can know the word and should know the word just as much as my pastor. Not to say that we're not led, but my point is that I have access to the same Bible that you have access to.

SPEAKER_05 8:19

Right.

SPEAKER_06 8:20

So if there is a concern and that concern is legitimate, and then the leadership is treating you as though you don't have a voice here, that's not a place you need to be. Because they're not stewarding you well, being in leadership over you. And also it's kind of given, I think I'm a king here.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Ooh.

SPEAKER_06 8:44

Which I don't know if y'all know this, but every church is gods.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Everyone, every church is here, I think some are a little confused, but yes.

SPEAKER_06 8:53

Well, yeah. The ones every church should be gods. Let me put it that way. If we have um hierarchy like that, that's a problem because we're mismanaging people, A. But B, that is really about us. That's not about him. And I do think that there's there are people who get into leadership positions and they're like, okay, everything's about me. I'm running this. This is my ship. But it's not. This is this is God's. So if that's happening, that's crazy. And other leadership needs to be aware and hold whatever leader that was accountable to be like, nah, that's not how we do things here. Because if it's accurate, we need to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

And I think you see it happen a lot. Like it happens a lot in the church. You'll see if you pull up podcasts and you pull up things online, you'll hear it often. Even the thing that happened with Bethel. There were people who brought that to leadership, biblically brought it to leadership. And next thing they know, they're shunned and they're no longer at the church, right? They completely left because no one was listening to them. When it comes to people who are speaking the truth, there's a right way and a wrong way to do that. I want to be completely transparent with that. So if you come at someone wild and they're not receptive, that's on you, man. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying for you to like go in there and guns blazing. This is trash. Like, you need to fix it. No, I'm saying sit down and from the right posture of your heart. Hey, this is not right, and we need to fix this.

SPEAKER_06 10:21

You're talking about being gaslit.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:24

Essentially. That's crazy. We should have started that way. We should have said this episode is going to be on gaslighting in the church.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Gaslighting in the church.

SPEAKER_06 10:34

That's crazy to me. I I mean, I know it happens. Bethel was a great example of that. Um, but I think that speaks exactly to why there needs to be leadership in the church the way that it's designed to be, where there is not just one grand poopah above everyone else. Like, that's why there's elders and deacons and all these things.

SPEAKER_05 10:57

Right.

SPEAKER_06 10:58

If they can't speak into the life of the lead pastor, I'm assuming that's who we're talking about right now, but if they can't speak into the life of anyone in leadership and hold them accountable. And if a person who has a concern can't go to their elders, can't go to their leaders and voice that concern, that is scary. You might need to consider where you're going.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

And what's even worse, maybe, is when you do, maybe you do voice the concern and they acknowledge it. Nothing happens. Much worse is that when it to your face they're like, oh yeah, that's that's not acceptable. You turn around and nothing's changed. We're just continuing down the same path and brushing things under the rug.

SPEAKER_06 11:42

I'm not a um proponent for church hopping. I really am not. Um, because I think people have this mindset that if this doesn't work out here, I'll just go somewhere else and it'll be better.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:54

And I'm and and no, anywhere you go, you're dealing with people. You know, anywhere you go, you're going to have to walk through things. I have yet to be a part of a relationship, and I mean any kind of relationship where there wasn't a misunderstanding about something, or you know, we just saw things differently, when you're dealing with people, it's going to happen. So you should not be church hopping. I don't I want to say that before I say this next thing. But if you are seeing something that is unbiblical, or you're seeing uh people be mismanaged and you've brought it to the attention of your leadership, and your leadership has not done anything, and then it's been brought up again, and they're still not doing anything. We're called to submit to our leaders. But if you need to remove yourself from that situation, you need to do that because you need to protect yourself, you need to protect your family. And uh you also need to be somewhere where they are modeling the word accurately. I'm all about submitting to your leader wherever you are. I'm about that. But what I'm not about is willingly submitting to poor leadership. At some point, you have to look at that and be like, this is not good for me.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Right.

SPEAKER_06 13:08

And if that is the case, go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Like, and you got to know the difference between it when you're just offended and when something's biblically inaccurate. And Julia probably knows this about me. I'm really big on asking the questions before I walk in when I'm thinking something. Okay, is this person doing this? Yes or no? I ask Michael this all the time when he talks to me. Is this what's happening? Yes or no? If it's yes, okay, go to the next question. Why? Go to the next question. And I'll ask myself all of these questions. And then I sit down before I walk in the office and I say, what approach do I need to have so that this is one received? Because my goal isn't to go in there and blow someone's life up. That's a lot funner sometimes. But my goal isn't to go in there and and assert my authority. Like I'm in the right here, you're in the wrong. And this is what it is. And you fix it or deuces. That's not my goal. My goal is I want I want resolution. I want something to happen. I want change to be seen. I want them to see my heart. So when I'm heated, I'm telling you right now, I will stop myself and I'll say, okay, how are they gonna receive this? Because I can blow your life up. Or I can be humble and I can come to you in a position to where I have come with wanting to understand, but also wanting to address. And then you're gonna be sitting there like, well, they're just not receptive to anything. No, if you walk in the the office and you say, Hey, I think you're a jerk. I don't think you care about anyone but yourself.

SPEAKER_06 15:03

I would like to preface that I never told her to do that because she just made it seem like I said, go in there and just tell people. Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

We would never do that. But what I am saying is sometimes she's like, Madison, you just do the most. But if you're like from the the position of the person that has the burnout or the hurt, or something's happening to where they feel like they're not having the voice that they want to have. I don't even remember what you called it, but whatever. Um approaches everything.

SPEAKER_06 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

So you may be completely right. Everything you say could be completely right. But your heart, heart posture is showing that you're completely a jerk. Like you're completely wrong.

SPEAKER_06 15:42

You are. But there's that but that I know you've been waiting on.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

There we go.

SPEAKER_06 15:48

You're absolutely right. But when you are in a leadership position, it's your job to be able to see the heart of the person, even if they're coming incorrect.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

That is true.

SPEAKER_06 16:00

So if the person is coming incorrect, which I would never suggest that you do, but if the person is coming incorrectly, you still have to ask yourself, is what they're saying true? Like you said, all the questions that you you prepare when you're going into it, you need to be asking yourself those same questions on the receiving end. Is what they're saying true? Did I do that? Could it have been perceived that way? As a leader, you have to, because you will never capture their heart to be able to have that conversation if you can't first admit that the thing that they're upset about is accurate. So we're talking, we're talking about um leaders uh dismissing people. That's exactly why they do it, because at no point do we stop and say, this thing that this person has brought to me is true and accurate is true and accurate. It's it's it's a lot easier to just be like, eh, you don't know what you're talking about, and then go on and not deal with your stuff.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

And I agree. I think for the leaders out there, I I do think that they have to do the same thing. But the only person's actions I can control is mine. Correct. Like the only actions you can control is yours. Your approach is what you can control. I can't, I can't, I cannot control what Julia says to me after I while I'm having the conversation. I have no control. I usually can't control the direction in which this conversation goes based off of how I respond to her. I can easily de-escalate or escalate it. We can blow this place up or we can bring it back down to the city.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

I'm really good at escalating.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

It's it's completely up to you. The only person's actions I can control is mine. So when I say the people, if you're going through something where you feel like they don't care, they're not listening, watch your approach.

SPEAKER_06 17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

You'll get a lot further. Now, if you came in with the softest approach and you've really held their hand through it and talked to them, and they looked at you and they threw a fit and they were like, well, apparently I hate everyone. Whatever. All right, that's a completely different scenario. Now we have someone in leadership that apparently takes no self-accountability and honestly doesn't know how to lead. Okay, so that's a different scenario. But if it's you came in hot and you were like, you're a jerk, you suck, um, and I'm really upset that you stole my Cheetos, or I don't know. Like you you really like go in on them and you're just telling them how trash they are. There's a lot of leaders that are not going to be able to dig themselves out of it. Let's just be honest. Where I am and where you are is not where everyone is. Most people were older.

SPEAKER_06 18:37

Um you made us sound like we're 80 years old.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

I feel so much older than people when I talk about things like this and I hear conversations people have had and how they've handled it. And I sit there and I'm like, that wouldn't have been my approach.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

You know, I would have handled that a little more gracefully.

SPEAKER_06 18:54

I don't disagree with you. We all should be mindful of how we're approaching people. But what I will say is that leaders are held to a higher standard. They absolutely you are going to be held accountable for how you handle the people that God has brought to you to lead.

SPEAKER_05 19:11

Preach.

SPEAKER_06 19:12

It's you just are. So even if they are coming incorrectly, leadership still has a responsibility to come correctly. That's just the way that it goes. Um, I'll go all the way back to Genesis. When God was looking for Adam and Eve, who did he call for? Adam. Who ate the fruit first? Eve. But who did he call? Adam. Because Adam was in charge and Adam was there. But he was in charge. If we're in charge, what we do, we're going to be held accountable for. So even if the person is coming incorrectly, you still have a responsibility to respond with the heart of God. That's something I'm actively learning. That's why I feel so hard, huh? Passionate about it. You have to do that. And so if someone is coming to you, especially if they're coming to you with the right heart and you're dismissing them, that's bad. It's really bad, especially if they're telling the truth. If they're not telling the truth, then deal with that. But if they're telling the truth and then you gaslight them or you just completely dismiss it altogether, that's a problem. And I would never um tell someone to stay and be abused that way.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:31

It's one thing to give people. It is. It's one thing to give people grace because we all fail. It's another thing when it's habitual. I will never ask somebody to stay and purposefully get abused by someone who's supposed to be their shepherd.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 20:50

See what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

That's messed up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:52

We're not just talking about your work boss. We're talking about the person who's supposed to be your shepherd.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

It's really interesting, you know. And I think we've talked about leadership within the church and how leadership in churches work. Um, but not even from a church standpoint, just leaders within the body. We'll just say within the body. And I know at one point I said that I've met better leaders within the business than I have within the body, and that's due to training, probably. Or due to the fact that if you act foolish in a business sense as the leader, you know what's gonna happen? I'm gonna fire you. If you and an employee, if one of my leaders and their employee get into it and they're throwing swear words at each other, I'm gonna fire that leader. See, they're gonna be gone. It won't be a question. Like if the employee does it, I might give them a warning. But if the the boss goes off in on their their employee, I am gonna hold them to a higher standard. I had it happen, I don't know, weeks ago where they didn't custody that wasn't like that. But where, you know, some banter. Happened that shouldn't have happened. And the only thing I thought said was, where was the leader? I'm not worried about what they did. I'm worried about what the leader did to fix it. So I see that in a business sense all the time, where it's just like we are held to that standard. And if you do mess up, we will let you go because there is no room for bad leadership. We sometimes offer hype or grace within the church where it's like I'm seeing a pattern and I'm seeing multiple people have issues. But grace is gonna cover this. And that's just just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_06 22:46

No, and I'm pretty sure Paul said something about not just throwing grace around as a license to sin just because it exists.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Grace for you. Grace for you.

SPEAKER_06 22:58

Grace is not a license to sin. It's supposed to lead us to repentance. The goodness of God is supposed to lead us to repentance, not continue to do the same thing over and over again. And this, I really do think, should be its own episode. I think we should do this. But I think part of the reason why we're here is because we have created, at least in the West, we have created a culture of idolizing our pastors. And that's why they're never held accountable. Well, I won't say never. That's why a lot of the times they're not held accountable because we idolize our pastors. And once we idolize them, if somebody points something out, there's no way that they could be off like this.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

I think that's exactly what we saw at Bethel, right? They they put these people up on a pedestal, and when people came and said something, it was kind of discarded. It was just kind of like we're taking care of it. Mind your business.

SPEAKER_06 23:57

Exactly. But see, I think the responsibility of the body is to come together and hold our leaders accountable. It's one thing when you have one person doing it, it's very easy to disregard that person. But if everyone sees it, the body should be holding their leaders accountable. And I think that's the way we get out of this uh idolatry of our leaders is by doing that. If I see something, you see something, and then four of the families in our church see something going on with our leader, we should collectively, and that's what the word tells us to do. Yes, we first go and say something individually because we're not trying to produce gossip. The goal is restoration. But if that doesn't happen, we're supposed to go grab other people and hold these leaders accountable. The reason why that part never happens is because we never do that part. We never come together and say, hey, we all see this thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 24:55

Let's go and make that voice known. And that's why those things continue. So I guess the way that we come out of that is shocker, doing what the Bible tells us to do. We we have to come together. No one person should be bigger than the body. I think that's where we get this wrong.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

And no one person is bigger than God.

SPEAKER_06 25:19

Right, exactly. We get this wrong because we put these people on these pedestals, or we allow them to make us feel like we don't know what we're talking about, and like we don't have any spiritual authority just because we happen to not be a pastor or whatever. And that's not what the Bible says.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

And if you feel like you can't go and have that conversation, like I I don't want to hurt his feelings. I don't know, I don't want to be viewed in this light. Because sometimes when you speak up, you become the problem. Sure. You look like the problem, I know, because sometimes when people complain to me, I'm like, man, this person complains a lot, right? Sometimes you you don't want to become the problem to have those hard conversations with someone who you do have in spiritual authority over you that you've I'll say allowed, because if you chose that church, you're allowing them to have some spiritual authority over you, right? Um and I just think you need to check one where you're at. I know you talked about going. Like, I never have been concerned that if I have an issue, that I can't go say something. Granted, I don't think I've really had to do that. But um, if I had one, I'm not con I'm not in the least bit concerned. You don't know me if you know me. I like I don't have a problem letting you know what I'm thinking. I don't have a problem letting you know when I see something out of alignment. Um, because my job or my job, my place in the body is to make sure that we stay aligned with the word. That's what I want to do. Stay aligned with the word. Like I said, there's no ranking when it comes to holding up the principles of the Bible and following the Bible. There's no ranking. I don't have to worry about, oh, well, it's not my place to go and let my pastor know that this was biblically inaccurate, but he preached it. Someone else will get him.

SPEAKER_06 27:11

Yeah, but see, that's the thing. And you know, you said that nobody wants to be the bad guy. I would like to submit that most people are talking about it with other people, right? I know. And so we've got to dispel this idea of, or we've got to dispel these um Lone Ranger Christians. Like, if five of y'all are talking about it, five of y'all need to go do something about it. Don't just put it on one person to go do. You're talking about it. Let's be honest. Come on, let's not play this game.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

Right.

SPEAKER_06 27:43

If it's something happening and it's that bad, the church is talking. Let's just be for real. At what point do y'all come together and be the body and do what you need to do? Why would you send one person to go do that?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Because then that one person does look like the troublemaker.

SPEAKER_06 27:59

Exactly. But why would you do that if y'all all are in agreement that this thing is wrong?

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Because people are scared.

SPEAKER_06 28:06

Well, get over that.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Usually in a group of five, one has a backbone. You can appoint people to do that. I was trying to think of I was trying to think of how to say that and not make it sound bad. There's one that has more of a backbone than others.

SPEAKER_06 28:26

And that's fine, but you can still go, like, even Jesus sent the disciples out in twos.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

I really feel bad for anyone who it has me, Julia, and Mike in a scenario, and we were all in alignment. Because I don't think anyone lacks the backbone.

SPEAKER_06 28:42

No, but even with that being said, like there have been certain circumstances, um, even in our relationship, where you, I felt like were the most qualified to speak to a situation. So I was there, but I fell back and let you do it. And vice versa. Everybody's not got to go. Bash the pastor. But going to support and going to be like, yeah, this is not just a one-person thing. This is a congregation view. If you have one person who's a speaker, that's fine. But don't send them out there by themselves. What in the world? I just don't understand that. If you're all in agreement, it's like, it's like when we hold our audition process. We have the worship director who has the final say, right? But we're all there. We're all there contributing to the decision that was made or whatever. We just don't have the final voice. That's fine. If you need someone to be the the um the class project leader and do all the talking, that's fine, but go with them.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

I hate being a class project leader. That's horrible.

SPEAKER_06 29:49

I do too. That's why I'm glad I'm not in school.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

I'd much rather do like the background stuff and you present.

SPEAKER_06 29:54

Yeah, I didn't like it either. But do you see my point? Like you don't have to, you don't have to do it that way. And I don't think we're supposed to. The one-to-one is when I see something, Madison, I see you doing this. And as a friend, I'm not trying to put your business out there. Maybe there's something that's going on that I don't know. Let's that's good.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Time and place. Time and place.

SPEAKER_06 30:17

Let's have a conversation. Then if I see that you're just set on being stupid, then I go find someone else. Yeah, you start that first out of a concern. But when we're talking about leadership and we're talking about leadership that has a history of gaslighting people, don't send anybody in by themselves like that. Still come in the right heart.

SPEAKER_05 30:37

Right.

SPEAKER_06 30:38

But there's nothing wrong with the body being the body. The body don't function if all the parts don't work together.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

And leaders, if someone comes at you absolutely wild, take a pause and say, is what they're saying, is there truth to it? Now, if there's no truth to it, I might politely say, uh, you know, I I am sorry you feel that way. Sure. Why do you feel that way? Let me let me debulk your problem. I would love to. Give me the opportunity for you to say something to me, and I sit down with you and we pick this down to the bones, and we can figure out where the real issue is. I would love to. Please let me. It's the funnest part of the process, right? If it's inaccurate, but if you start pulling it and you're like, oh, that might be, let me set this over here. This might be accurate. Oh, oh dang. So I could see why they'd think that. Okay. Well, now we're getting down to it, and what they're saying is they don't see my heart. Well, now I'm gonna have to show them it. Like right now, I'm gonna have to be humble and say, you know what, Julia, I completely see it. I see what you're talking about. And I want you to know that um my heart is for this. This is where my heart is. And I know in the past maybe I haven't prioritized things properly. Um, and that's on me. I'll take ownership of that. But I want you to know where my head is. This is where my head is.

SPEAKER_06 32:08

Sure. So I guess in summary, what I'm saying is is this is a two-sided issue. Yes. It's a leadership issue, but it's also a congregation issue, not understanding their role in all of this. Yes, you are being led. Yes, you should respect your pastor as your leader that you have willingly submitted to. Yes, all of those things are true. But they're also your brother or your sister in Christ. And we're supposed to hold each other up. All of us get this wrong at some point. You should feel comfortable with going and saying, hey, I see this, come in the right heart, but you should feel comfortable and saying that. If you don't, I would start exploring why. Is it because you've submitted yourself to poor leadership, or is it because you lack the confidence to do so? And then address both of those things accordingly, whatever the answer is, address both of those things. Um, but just because you're a congregant doesn't mean that you're supposed to be silent. That's not how that goes. And leaders, if you do not allow your body to voice concerns to you, you need to check your heart because you are shepherding these people, which means that they're supposed to be able to come to you with their concerns, even if their concerns are you.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

I don't even remember what we were talking about, but something good, I guess.

SPEAKER_06 33:52

Something good, I guess. This is one of those ones where I think we started one way and we ended somewhere else.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

I think me and Julia were not on the same page when we started this.

SPEAKER_06 34:01

Not at the beginning, but this is a good, good subject about that. I think maybe next time we talk about um the overworking of our volunteers. Yes, which is what I thought we were talking about this whole time.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

I was talking about people feeling like they don't have a voice and a body.

SPEAKER_06 34:19

Well, guys, thank y'all for coming on this roller coaster journey with us as we unpack something we didn't know we were talking about.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

I knew what we were talking about.

SPEAKER_06 34:28

Okay, I didn't know we were talking about. We'll see y'all in the next one where we will be more prepared.