The Church Needs to Stop Faking Fine

In this episode, we discuss why toxic positivity can be harmful to the Church body. While hope and encouragement matter, pretending everything is always fine can create loneliness, shallow relationships, and unrealistic expectations.

We talk about why honesty is necessary for real community, how hardship teaches us to support one another, and why the Church should be a place where people can be known, not just appear okay.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I've seen where people know someone's going through something and they'll try to avoid them if they don't have a talk to them about it.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

That's crazy. That isn't crazy. You know that the person is going through something hiding. That isn't hiding.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Gotta get out of here. They might just talk to me and I might get stuck with them for 30 minutes and I'm trying to get to the golden corral before everyone else does.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Hey, it's here Slice this podcast. And this week we're talking about toxic positivity in the church.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Yes. And just to unpack that a little bit further, we're talking about the perception that everything is always supposed to be good and positive, and how that is stifling us as a body.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Yes, and how it is making it to where we don't go deeper in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

So I think there's two perspectives that we kind of want to unpack in this, and that is exactly what you said about how when we just treat everything like everything is awesome, that we don't go deeper in relationships. And then the other perspective being that when we do that, we don't equip people with the tools to grow.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

So let's start organized and unpack the relationship aspect.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Well, when I'm thinking about the relationship aspect and how that hits, like there's two parts to it. Well, there is the part where you know someone may come to you and something's going on, and the answer is, well, I'll pray for you. Let's pray about it. And we don't go any deeper into really what the root of the issue is or any of that. We're just gonna pray about it. Pray that God, you know, comes through. And it it's almost as if right then we unburden ourselves with whatever's going on with them. It's it's I'm gonna pray for them, I'm gonna check the box. I prayed for you, I did what I was supposed to do, and I'm not worried anymore. There's nothing to worry about. We didn't really understand what the problem is. We get so robotic in a sense, right? Um, and then there's the point where, you know, with relationships where people don't bring what is going on and what they need to talk to because they don't want to be seen as negative.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Right, right. I think that's where my mind went, was more so on the the person bringing it up, is that sometimes we do paint this picture like because we're Christians, everything's great.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Life is great.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

And so when everything isn't going great in your life, you may hesitate to reach out to people because you're like, this is the environment in which I find myself, and how am I gonna be perceived if I bring this thing that's not warm and fuzzy to uh to the church, um, which is really unfortunate because that's why we're here, right? To walk through things with each other. Um that's why I don't enjoy Christian ease. Like if if you're going to be, um, if you're going to call yourself a Christian and you're going to be a part of a body and you're going to offer to be there for people, that's the other thing. You said earlier that we're checking off boxes. Yes, we are. I never ask, or I try very hard. I won't say never do it, but I try very hard not to ask someone how they're doing without being prepared to hear how they're doing. But sometimes we get into this Christian ease of, it's Sunday, so I gotta ask, how is everything? And how can I be praying for you? Because it's the thing to ask, but then I don't really expect you to tell me. And why would you ask that if you're not prepared, um prepared to do that? I think you told me one time somebody was like, I don't um, I don't ever really divulge when people ask me that because I know they don't care. And that's so unfortunate. That's so unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

It was it was they said to me that most of the time when people ask you how you are, 99% of them don't care, and the other 1% are hoping you're for your downfall. When they said that, I was like, very negative. So morbid. I was like, this was at church too. So I was like, oh wow. But is it true? I think that um, yeah, I do think it's for most, I want to say for for everyone, I do think there's people that, you know, um, I don't want to say it's a spiritual gifting, but they really do have wear that heart where they want to know you are okay. And they want you to talk to them. I would say Michael is one of those people. Um my husband, he's very, how are you? Let me dig deep, let me bother you, let me make you uncomfortable so I can make sure you're okay. And there's people that are, how are you? And if you start talking and sharing and divulging, well, now they're uncomfortable. Like this is awkward, and like, why did you share that with me? I don't know anyone like that. But I think there are those people out there that get really awkward. They ask the question because they have to, you know, in passing, how are you doing today? Oh, I'm I'm great. It's good to see you. My favorite is when they're like, living my best life. Because I once also heard that's what um white people say when they hate their lives. So every time I hear someone say, I'm living my best life, I'm like, Are you sure? Like whose life you living, man?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Um I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Really? No. Which part, the living your best life, or that's what white people. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Never heard that.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

I have. Um, so I always think that when someone tells me, I'm just living my best life. But we don't try to get deeper than that um from a personal standpoint for the people who are hurting. Um, I've seen where people know someone's going through something and they'll try to avoid them, so they'll have to talk to them about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

That's crazy. That is insanity. You know the person is going through something and you're hiding? That is insane.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Gotta get out of the here. They might just talk to me and I might get stuck with them for 30 minutes, and I'm get trying to get to the golden corral before everyone else does.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

That golden corral. Wow. And you know, while you were talking about that, I was like, it was like something went off in my mind. I'm just like, and that is why we have such a culture of loneliness. You know, we are walking around here masquerading as though we're happy, and and happiness I understand is relative. You know, I can be happy in one moment and somebody can say the wrong thing and I'm no longer happy. But what I'm saying is, we can be masquerading around as though we have joy and we don't. And it's because we have uh enabled a culture of surface level relationship, which is so unfortunate because this is the place where we're supposed to have built-in relationship.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Right. You should be able to, and I don't say I'm not saying it to trust everyone, but you should have people, especially within the body, that you know that they're championing, championing.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

I can't even do it. Wow. Championing.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Championing.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Championing.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Championing. There it is. That's such a horrible word. I don't even know if it's real. Championing. There's like that can't be it. They're gonna go to battle with you. Okay, that those are your your people, you know. That um, what do we call them? 3 a.m. friends, that's what we call them. There should be some within your body that um are doing that for you. There's such a perception that if you are exposed, you're weak, but also you're not usable. That if you are broken, that you shouldn't be used to help anyone within the body, they're going through this, so I really shouldn't trust them to lead anyone. And I think sometimes people don't speak up because they're like, you know, I am going through something. Life is hard. People are going through stuff, life is difficult. It's not butterflies and rainbows, right? But because I'm going through this, if I share this, if I divulge this, they're not going to allow me to speak into other people.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

So now we're perpetuating a spirit of fear.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Yes. And um, you know, I I'm thinking about some instances that happened where uh, you know, I I've talked to people and they've gone through stuff and they said, you know, at the end of it, I was disappointed. And I think of the the bravery it takes to say that, and where people might say, You're disappointed in God, like who are you? And I'm thinking, have you not ever been disappointed in your life? Have you never really truly believed something was gonna happen or wanted for something and it did not come through? And you sat there and you're like, Lord, what did I not do according to the check boxes I did? Or like, what did I not do to get there? We don't talk about that, you know, we're back to God willing. Um, but sometimes when we share and we divulge what is happening or what we're going through, and there is a state of depression, I think, within the church. A lot of people are depressed. I've seen it in multiple churches and multiples. When you start pulling people out of the church and y'all go to women's retreats or ministries or whatnot, you see everything. You're like, I can see all the skeletons.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

We don't see this on Sunday, but every on the women's retreat, um, sitting there like, wow, these people are broken. And I'm over here sipping coffee and asking them how their day is and chatting it up with them, and I have no clue what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I I think you know, we so we started off by saying it's toxic, and I was thinking through why is is it toxic? I think we understand why it's wrong, but it it's toxic because it perpetuates generation after generation. The more that we do this and we make it a norm, we teach that to our children, and then they perpetuate it, and then they teach that to their children, and what you've end up ended up passing down is a spirit of fear, like what you just said, um, loneliness, and that becomes the legacy, right? Not camaraderie, not brotherhood and sisterhood. Hiding becomes the legacy that you are pushing forward, and that's why it's toxic. When whenever something is toxic, it's killing you, and it's killing um potential for something. And in this case, if we don't correct it, it's killing generations because that's what will we will be passing down, and that's so unfortunate. But also, if people are never honest, to go back to the leadership thing, then you don't know if you have someone in leadership who should not be there in that particular moment. Because there are times when all of us need to sit down sometimes, like because we're all going through things. It's not to say that you're an unusable person, you just might be in a season where you need to be fed and poured into right now, not the one doing the pouring. But when we're not honest, how do we ever know that? And I think going back to a conversation we had before, that could be one of the reasons that uh why people get burnt out is because we're masquerading about as though we're okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

I think we live in this um time and place where we place value in in our purpose and what we're doing at that moment. And I'm gonna take it from church and take it to business. Like you see people within a organization that will every the organization is the life. I will not go on vacation, I will work during vacation, I will do all these things because I don't want to be replaceable. I'm gonna work so hard they can't replace me. There ain't no one out there that's gonna do what I'm doing. And I think you see it within organizations, but you also see it within the church where you are holding your value as to how much you are pouring out. And to your point, it gets to the point where you need to be poured into. You're so scared to speak out and let let know, like, hey, I need a moment of this because you're so scared by the time you get back, you'll already be replaced. They'll put someone else in that section. As bad as it sounds, I used to say when I was in leadership at the beginning, I used to tell people, I don't need you, I can replace you. I can do it better than you can do it, I'm sure. So, like if you don't do it and you don't do it well, or you have a minute of burnout, or something's not adding up, or it's not great, leave. I'll put someone else in your spot and I'll teach them and they'll do it better than you're doing it. And so then it gets to the point where you're like, well, this person only values me for what I can give. And I think that goes to why people don't speak up when they're going through stuff. If if I do speak up and I say, I need a moment, will it be like, all right, well, we use them to the maximum maximum of their capacity, it's time for us to go to the next person. They no longer can handle this.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yeah, but that's such a heart issue on the part of the person doing that. Like, you have to ask yourself if if, and I think we've all done it. I think we have all, like, hey, how you doing? Just, you know, because it's just natural to do. But you have to ask yourself if you're at a point where you're asking those questions and someone does stop and they do start talking to you, and your thought process is, how do I get out of this as fast as possible? You need to stop and check yourself. And I'm saying that because I've had to stop and check myself. We talk all the time about Jesus stopping for the one. At what point do we stop for the one? And on the reverse of that, at what point do we give ourselves the grace to be the one who needs to be stopped for? Part of this is that we don't stop for other people. The other part is that sometimes we're not transparent. Because there are people who genuinely do care. But if you don't trust those people, and and find them, because it ain't everybody. Don't be telling everybody your business. But sometimes the issue is that we don't want our perception to be I'm weak, like you said, I'm weak or I'm struggling or I'm this or I'm that, and then we don't get the thing that we need that is available. There are people who will stop for you, um, which is why it's toxic because no matter what position you're looking at it from, either way, it's not good.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah, and I will say this: like when it comes to getting out of that habit of everything, just toxic positivity, you gotta know your time and your place and who you're talking to. Of course, listen, if my 16-year-old son walks up to you and you asks you how your day is, and you just start unloading your life's issues on him, that's a problem. Please do not do that.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

And I'm gonna say this for the ladies if you're going through something within your marriage or something like that, and I come up to you and I ask you, hey, how's things going? And you're like, everything's great. Um, I'm good. Thank you. And then my husband comes up and asks you, and you word vomit everything on him. Yeah, you better get no. I already know what this is. And if you don't, listen, no, there's no reason that you're going to another man to try to what?

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Steward you're husband, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Steward you or like try to like like be have headship or give you. Absolutely not. There, there's a reason there are females in the body and males in the body. Please don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

No.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

And don't, men do not come to me and try to talk to me about your wife and wife issues.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Go find you a man to talk to. Let's let's keep this where there is no honestly, I don't think there's any reason for it. Let's not blur any lines here. Let's make sure that we're we're having a purpose. We're not coming here to talk to people about our problems to feel sorry for me.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Please feel sorry for me, victimize me, make me feel good. Go to the person who's gonna say, okay, let's actually get to the bottom of this, let's fix this. Let me help you.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah, I agree. That's crazy. Um, I know it happens all the time. It does, but that is crazy. And I think to elaborate on that a little bit, is sometimes we want to do things on our terms. Sometimes we want to be vulnerable for our ulterior motives, even if we don't know what those motives are. I'm not saying that, you know, maybe, maybe I I just don't give off an approachable vibe, but this guy gives off an approachable vibe, so I'm gonna talk to him. It doesn't matter if that's where your level of comfortability is. That's just not right. Just, you know, just don't do that. But sometimes you do have ulterior motives as to why you're telling certain people what you're telling them or not telling certain people what you're telling them because of the way that you'll be perceived or what you think you'll glean or whatever. That's why I think we need to have more of a culture of openness. Again, not with everyone, but women especially, I think sometimes we have a hard time opening up to other women because we think we're in competition with each other. It is, but the quickest way to get over that is for us to decide that we're gonna be open with each other.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

I don't know how many times I've heard Michael come to me and tell me, yeah, so so-and-so, you know, said they don't know how to talk to you or they think you don't like them. And I'm like, why would they think that?

SPEAKER_03 17:45

I never said that.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

It's I've talked to them many times, like I've passed them and I've spoken to them, and they keep it short. If you keep it short with me, I'm gonna keep it short with you. I'm gonna keep it going. Like, if I can tell you don't want to talk, I will leave you be. It's not a problem. If you want to talk, I will talk to you. Um, but I I think I I don't want to say that every woman that does it has are, like you said, I'm gonna try to pronounce it. I don't know what's wrong with my words today. Mo other motives, but I do think that um you should really just be examining like who who you're talking to about certain things. The whole church doesn't need to know your business. That's not what I'm asking people to do, but I am saying find you your people within that body. And those we're supposed to be family when I have an issue, I can call my family on the phone any time of the night and I'll say I know who to call and who not to call, because some of them give horrible advice. But if I just need someone to listen to me, I know who I can pick up the phone and call. Um, if you guys think that the people that are in leadership within a church or are not having attacks and things happen to them, you're so wrong.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah. And I again, I'm gonna always live here. I don't know why we put an expectation on the church that was not presented to us biblically. Why do we do that? Like Jesus walked through the trenches with the disciples, um, both building them up, but also speaking to the things in them that needed to be pruned. If Jesus set that example about that level of depth of relationship, why do we feel like we have to do this? I I understand being um being cautious of who you share things with, but the idea of I'm gonna put on this this this facade that nothing ever goes wrong um because that's just how I want to be perceived, that was never modeled for us. Case in point. I just had this conversation today um at a wedding, and I was talking that I was singing at, and I was saying, you know, uh, I was telling the person, if you see me singing with my eyes closed, for the majority of the time, there's a reason because so-and-so has already told me that they're gonna start crying, and if they start crying, I'm gonna start crying, and I can't do that and sing this song. And they looked at me and was like, You cry? And I'm like, Yes, I cry. What kind of question is that? I'm like, Yeah, I cry. There are people who know that. I don't cry in front of everybody, but there are people who know that. And and the fact that there is even that perception of me that I always have everything together, I'm very quick to squash. No, I don't, because I don't want to perpetuate that, and then when when I need someone, there's no one around because nobody is thinks that Julia ever needs anything, and that's just not true. So we have to be better about not putting that image of ourselves out there and being honest and be like, no, I'm figuring this out just like the rest of y'all. Like, don't don't look at me like that, and I think that gives um people freedom to do the same. And just so you know, I also um your name came up in that conversation too, and I'm like, I'm Madison cries, y'all. Like, for real? Yes, she's a human.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

It's crazy. It is crazy. People don't think I'm human. It's it's just really interesting because you meet someone like Michael and he has like all the personality, and people just love him, and then it's like I feel like the black widow over in the corner, like they're like, your wife. And I wonder if people are ever like, how in the world do you got this over here? And it's married to this over here. And how does this work?

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah. But I just wanted to let you know I set the record straight that you have emotions.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

I do care a lot. I know. Now, I always say I am most people's last resort when they come to talk to me. You know why? Because we're gonna figure it out. There will be no excuses by the end of this. What is the issue? Don't come to me with a problem and not expect me to try to help you through it.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Now there are times when I know people just want to talk to someone and then to listen to them and tell them about the problem. Don't come and talk to me then. I'm not the one. Because I know I will be like, okay, so um this is what you sh we need to do. Like, let's get, let's kind of debulk the excuses and let's get down to the to the you know, meat and potatoes and let's keep going. So I'm just pre-warning you. If you come to me, just expect me to be like, okay, what are we gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

And that's a great segue into the second point. And right before I say that, I I do want to let you know that on the hills of me telling them that we do cry, I was like, but I'm not a cry baby.

unknown 22:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Yeah. And we we I I can admit that I can work on that because there are things that I've seen people get really emotional about, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't, because they probably shouldn't. I'm over here like, seriously? Are you kidding me? I'm working on that. I there are times when I look at things and I'm like, you're throwing a fit about what exactly? Like you're having a huh? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

It's okay. I just I set an accurate stage. We do cry, but we're not crybabies. But to your point about people coming to you and you saying, okay, they probably don't come to me because I'm gonna say, how can we resolve this? The other thing that toxic positivity does is yes, it weakens relationships, it also stifles growth. Because if I never go to someone and tell them where I'm at, they can never point or pour into me to help me navigate through this situation so that I can grow from it, or vice versa. If someone never comes to you and you never pour into them, you never exercise the muscle of being there for someone else.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Or knowing your word enough to be an encouragement to push them on or to give them the tools that they need to grow. And so it's not just relationship, it's also growth. A lot of times you grow by fire, not by I read this and I understand it now. I mean, that happens, it happens, but a lot of times, whenever the lesson sticks, is when you've walked it through. Right. So when we don't have, or when we are trying to masquerade about as though everything is is good, when things are not, we tuck those away and we never learn how to deal with them.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

And that but that happens just in the church body in general. I don't know how many times I've seen where someone is there and it is visibly noticeable, something is out of place, something's not right, they're not okay, something's not. And we walk past them.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yes, because we want everything to appear to be positive, and nothing's wrong. And we but it's it's something's wrong. Like we gotta fix it. And we don't love that person if we don't at least attempt to help them. Now, if they don't receive it, that's a whole different conversation. But our willingness to go and to sit and to listen and to talk and to help, that's on us to initiate that if we don't do that, and I think we're so concerned with perception that we don't stop for people we say every week we love.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Or we act too busy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

But I'm telling you right now, I am very selective, very, I'm a very private person, just in general. Um, and I'm not apologizing for that.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

I know everything.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

I am very selective in who I she knows a lot. I am very selective in who I um share my heart with.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

But there are still people I share my heart with. If I feel like you can walk past me knowing something's wrong, and you don't have a concern for me to ask, genuinely ask, not just, oh hey Julia, how you doing? I'm gonna know you don't love me, or I'm gonna think that you don't love me. So I would imagine other people receive things that way as well. Like if if I know something's wrong with you, and I see it, and and I know it. Madison gets a look. I don't know if Madison knows she gets a look, but Madison has a look. So whenever something is wrong, and I know that, and you know I know that, and then I don't know, don't ever stop and be like, hey, what's going on? You're not gonna think I love you. You're gonna think Julie's keeping me around for a reason, but not because she loves me. Maybe she needs me for something, and that's where we go. They must be keeping me around because they need me for something. Like they need me to continue to serve. Julia needs me to sing because she knows I'm gonna stay on pitch. Like, but she don't love me, you know? And I would understand that. I that's exactly how I would process that kind of thing. So us not stopping for people is making them feel unloved. I think it would certainly make me feel that way. I I know it does, I know the people who love me and who don't.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

I know when people are asking me how I'm doing because it's the thing that they should do. And then I know the people who are asking me how I'm doing because they actually care. And if the church, by and large, has an attitude of I'm asking because it's the right thing to do, not because I care, we're missing the mark.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

So anyway, I I just feel like, you know, there's two things really that are not happening whenever we have this toxic positivity mindset, and that is that we don't have depth of relationship and we're not helping people grow. We are also ourselves not growing.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Because it's it's hard sometimes to have those conversations with people, but you need to have them. And the only way to develop the ability to be able to do that is to do it. But if you never put yourself in a position to do it, then you're not growing. So we're stifling growth, we're stifling relationships, and and this is just not the way God intended us to do it. Now, last thing, I'm not saying go around everywhere and be Debbie the Downer. That's not what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Like that's a whole nother podcast. That's a whole nother podcast.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

But what I'm saying is let's be honest. Right. And let's be honest with wisdom about who we should be honest with. But let's be honest because we're only hurting ourselves and the people around us when we don't.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

And if you are Debbie the Downer, I will help you fix that.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

I don't know if you'll like it, but she'll help you fix it.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

Pruning is not a fun situation.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

It is not. It is not. Gold is refined in fire.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

All of the things we can keep going.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

But yeah, that's that's my thoughts on that. You got anything else?

SPEAKER_01 29:09

No, I don't. I think that um I think we covered everything.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

All right. Well, we will see you guys next week.